Confronting injustice with collective action – IIED's new manifesto full transcript
Host [00:00] You’re listening to Make Change Happen, the podcast from IIED. In this episode, IIED chair of trustees Tara Shine and trustee John Taylor talk about the ambitions of the IIED, ‘Manifesto for a thriving world’, and the need for new responses to a range of compounding crises, greater uncertainty and growing injustice.
Tara Shine [00:26] Hello and welcome. I'm Dr Tara Shine, chair of IIED's board of trustees and really delighted to be with you all today. And let me introduce my fellow trustee, John.
John Taylor [00:39] Hello, everybody. My name is John Taylor. I'm an urban planner and a co-founder and former director of the Kota Kita Foundation based in Indonesia. And really excited to be able to discuss with you all today.
Tara Shine [00:53] Really looking forward to this conversation, John, and to reflecting on all the hard work that has gone into producing this really exciting new ‘Manifesto for a thriving world’ that IIED has launched. It's a new departure for us. And I think what's exciting is, for an organisation that's now 50 years old, to be looking back at our successes – and what we've been really good at over those years – and capturing the best of that and packaging it in a brand new way for a brand new world, for the next 50 years.
And I think one of the things that we've really realised and learned in doing all of that is that the world is now more complex. The issues that we care about are deeply, deeply interconnected, and bound and held back by a deep injustice.
And we felt really compelled to find new ways to work on these issues of climate, nature and inequality. And that's what the manifesto is all about. It's about challenging the hidden handbrakes that are holding us back in our progress and looking at new ways for IIED to contribute to making change. How do you feel when you read it, John, the manifesto? What strikes you?
John Taylor [02:15] Well, I think that IIED’s work has always reflected the concerns that are happening all around the world, some of which are really invisible to many people in the global North. But the fact that we can work together closely, listen to, incorporate the views and the voices of people in the global South, working really at the forefront of where change needs to happen, is so exciting. This is how IIED has been working. But it's really incorporated now into a strategy of creating alliances and bringing knowledge from the front lines to the global conversation. So just this idea that that we live in a very interconnected global world, as you've said, and it's very complex – but then how to bring all this together into a strategy that that is effective in bringing about change.
Tara Shine [03:13] Yeah, and an exciting part of this and a challenging part for us as a board, as well, has been the moving away from the certainty of a static five-year strategy, in the way that we used to do them, into something that is more visionary, more agile, more flexible. And that really focuses on IIED, not in isolation, but as part of coalitions of organisations working to the same shared objectives that we have. And so it’s exciting not only putting this new manifesto out into the world, but also thinking about how we’re going to work in new ways with new collaborators to deliver it.
But what might be nice, right now, is to hear from someone who obviously knows IIED very well, but has also been very instrumental in shaping the manifesto and the new approach that it brings. And that's IIED’s executive director, Tom Mitchell.
Tom Mitchell [04:09] So you've probably seen the placards of people protesting that say: ‘Systems change not climate change.’ So IIED’s new ‘Manifesto for a thriving world’, our new institutional strategy, is trying to spell out what it means to work for that systems change – acknowledging that the world's big problems are really complex and that we need to bring new solutions to the table. So, what we spell out is the idea that multiple organisations can work together, each bringing their complementary skills and expertise, but also each bringing new ideas and innovations and solutions to the table – simultaneously around the same problems – and learning from each other about what's working and what's not working.
But also, we need to be inclusive, making sure that those organisations span all dimensions of the problem and have really aligned interests. So in doing this, IIED brings to the table the idea of being that backbone organisation that helps to bridge and bring those organisations together. But also for us, that we can create the practical evidence with communities on the frontline about what works: so when we produce the kind of tipping points and transformations that we now desperately need, we know that the solutions are going to work for those communities.
And so, I think what we also acknowledge in this is that there are some really entrenched problems that are going to be tough to overcome. Whether that's fixed mindsets or vested interests or power dynamics that repress rights and so on, we need to make sure that the solutions also help to overcome those and we tackle the things that fix the current system in place. That's what our manifesto is about, and I think we're looking forward to working with really diverse, often unusual, partners and suspects who are going to come around the table and join us in that effort to really break the mould and tackle those intractable challenges.
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Tara Shine [06:02] Thank you, Tom. We recorded that a little earlier with Tom Mitchell, executive director of IIED. What's your reaction to what Tom had to say, John?
John Taylor [06:13] Well, I really appreciate how there's a recognition that these complex problems have so many different perspectives. We have to be listening and working with local communities who are experiencing a lot of the most devastating impacts of climate change, with civil society, with governments – local and national – and really finding a way to create a balance between all these different viewpoints and make actionable what we're seeing on the ground. And also what's happening in the global level. So the positioning of IIED as what Tom refers to as ‘a bridge’ or ‘facilitator’, I think is really exciting and really needed. And I think this is going to help this kind of global conversation and about taking action to become more effective.
Tara Shine [07:10] Yeah, I agree. And I think there's also a great opportunity for us to demonstrate what ‘systems change’ really means in reality. I think there's a lot of fear of complexity that holds organisations back. So getting uncomfortable with the messiness and the interconnectedness and the challenge of dealing with everything – from vested interests, to mindsets that are stuck, to injustices that prevent people from fulfilling their rights – is really, really important. Because without that, we simply cannot change the system. So we have to get to grips with the messy complexity.
And then, I think it's around looking at those kind of power dynamics that exist and seeing how we can bring different voices to the table, allow different people to meet each other, so that they gain courage from the fact that they know there are others in the room that see what they see and that they want a world that is different. And I think that's really crucial to get to the collective action that we need for systems change.
We can't change systems if just one or two people are calling for that change. We have to build these broad coalitions who share a similar perspective and want to change the system in similar ways. And that I'm wildly excited about. I think that's something which IIED is really good at and which, you know, working as you say – in a way where we listen to others and we find new partners to work with – is going to be really transformative.
John Taylor [08:48] I think that for some of the listeners, this idea of ‘system change’ and listening to, you know, some of the practitioners, it can be thought of as sort of very abstract. But here, we recorded previously an interview with Crissy Guerrero, who works in Asia as the head of the Sustainable Climate Adaptive Livelihood Program of the Non-Timber Forest Products Exchange Program. And I think she gives a really good example of how this can happen.
Crissy Guerrero [09:21] So as [Tom] Mitchell mentioned, some problems in the world are very heavily ingrained and this holds true for in the forestry systems too, where new solutions, new innovations, inclusive innovations are needed, with different stakeholders learning and contributing together. Our experience with non-timber forest product producers is that often buyers – whether they’re international buyers or local buyers – are looking for sustainable products, organic products, but they’re looking for certification for this claim.
And often this is third-party certification, where external parties are coming in to check their system. Sometimes this comes at great cost, US$20-30,000, and you can see that this could be a heavy financial burden for smallholders that already have just a little bit of a margin on top of their costs. So we also find this a bit disempowering, where external parties can say ‘yes’ or ‘no’ whether a product is sustainable or not without really understanding the whole local system at play there.
And therefore knowing all of this we realised, and we started an initiative 10 years ago based on the participatory guarantee system already operating in agricultural markets emerging in the world. And we worked with local people and local knowledge to develop the standards and protocols with multistakeholder partners, scientists, academics, communities, NGOs, governments to build a system.
This is working quite well with the rattan model in Indonesia and is developing into a regional model across Asia, with the Forest Harvest Collective Mark – a regional community forestry labelling initiative. And we’re already attracting international buyers and even large retail companies who believe in this system and also see how they can contribute to local economies and community producers, but also keep within their cost structure. So this is working well for all those in the value chain. And even though this is working well, it still needs time and resources to continue to develop – and also more promotion to make it more mainstream and more readily known.
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John Taylor [11:52] For me, I think what Crissy Guerrero helps to demonstrate there is that, you know, this idea of innovations at the very cutting edge of change – you know that's not located necessarily in a laboratory, or in a university, or a think-tank located in the UK or the United States or Europe. But at the very frontlines of where these issues are happening: be it in the forests of Indonesia, or in informal settlements at the edges of a megacity in India or Nigeria or elsewhere. And that we really have to value the knowledge of local systems and contexts in order to develop these kinds of solutions that can be scaled globally. So the idea about where innovation takes place, and I think it's really powerful in this example.
Tara Shine [12:45] Yeah, I agree. It's a really useful example, I think, also looked at from the perspective perhaps of the companies and organisations that are looking for these, you know, certified, organic, fair products. And through our supply chains, you know normally from the global North, we're trying to do sometimes the right thing. We're trying to make sure we have a supply chain that respects human rights, that is taking care and safeguarding the environment. But that can have unintended consequences if we're not in open dialogue with our suppliers and our supply chain. Because as Crissy revealed, sometimes wanting to do the right thing is imposing unfair costs and burdens on smallholders, which in the end can cause an injustice.
And so it's a really powerful example of something which was intended to do good, ending up creating an injustice and a burden. And I think then what really strikes me, is the courage that's needed to challenge the system and to propose a new system. So as you said, the innovation comes from the local level, but the courage to challenge the existing power dynamics and to say: ‘Actually that way of proving to you that we're a good supplier does not work for us. But we can propose this other way – our community first, relabelling – which is just as effective, we hope, in convincing you that you're doing the right thing, but works for us a lot better’.
So to find the courage to do that, really, again it's hard to do as an individual, but easier to do as a coalition when you bring people together around a common cause. So I think it's a really powerful example.
John Taylor [14:32] Yeah. And I really like this idea of, you can strengthen your resolve, you have that courage because you're working in these really trusting relationships that have been built over time and that create these coalitions that just have a lot of strength and presence and different voices. And that sort of the diversity and strength that diversity is really powerful.
Tara Shine [14:52] Yeah, and I think that applies to IIED too. So, you know, we want to change the world to make it a fairer, healthier place for everyone to live. We want to make sure that we have, you know, a thriving planet to live on. And it's hard for us to challenge the hidden handbrakes and the power dynamics that are holding things back, if it's just IIED on our own. And that’s why in the manifesto there is this emphasis in working in new kinds of coalitions. So no one country, for example, can address the debt crisis on their own.
The issue of debt and how it's holding some countries back in taking the action they need to take – even on climate change or on protecting nature or on meeting the basic needs of their citizens – has been covered in other issues of this podcast. And one country at a time would find it hard to challenge that problem. But when countries come together and when coalitions of organisations roll in behind them to really draw attention to these issues and propose practical solutions, I think that's when we can change things. And then as Tom says, we bring evidence to support those practical solutions and show how it can work. I think it's really, really powerful.
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John Taylor [16:20] And so, Tara, speaking about the manifesto and the sort of change or the fresh approach that it brings, if you could use one word to describe how IIED is doing things differently, what word would that be?
Tara Shine [16:36] Oh, I find this really hard to pick one word. I had chosen ‘dynamic’ because it's a word that you find throughout the manifesto. And that dynamism reflects a few things. It reflects our energy for the issues that we have been working on for the last 50 years. They're still the issues that we hold dear. Our mission remains the exact same. But the dynamism also reflects our ability to be agile, to respond to the unknown changes that are in the world, and to be dynamic in the way that we work with others, listen to others to find solutions.
We do not need to put ourselves front and centre; we can work in whatever way works best for our partners and collaborators to achieve those kind of common goals. So I think it's ‘dynamic’ for me, and I think it takes bravery to be dynamic, it takes energy to be dynamic and it takes imagination to be dynamic. And I think we have lots of all of those three things in IIED. But what about you?
John Taylor [17:40] Yeah, I mean, those are really great thoughts there. And I think that a common theme for us in this discussion we've had, has just been the way working collaboratively and really making that commitment to work, and listen to, and partner with organisations from around the world: those based in the UK or in other parts of the global North, but then really also those who are working at the frontlines, and are seeing and understanding and providing new ideas and knowledge to the conversation. So just that being able to work collaboratively I think is very exciting.
Tara Shine [18:21] Yeah thanks, John. I think that's one of those things. It's easy to say collaboration, it's harder to do collaboration. And I think IIED has an amazing track record in partnerships: partnerships that are long-lasting and genuinely equitable and that benefit both partners and all partners. So I think, you know, in this next phase of IIED's, I hope, very long history, showing how that collaboration can work will be really, really powerful.
And just to remind listeners that we'd love to hear what you think as well, in response to this podcast but also and when you read our manifesto. The manifesto is up on IIED's website, iied.org. And we have an email that you can send us your thoughts on as well. And you know, please join our conversation: we'd love to hear what you think, we'd love to know how you'd like to work with IIED, how you'd like to see us showing up in the world. So you're all very, very welcome to join our conversation and be part of this collaboration, as John was saying.
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John Taylor [19:29] Tara, as we conclude that this podcast: if there's one thing that you could change in the context of this discussion, what would that be for you?
Tara Shine [19:42] Yeah, we always try and put this this kind of question at the end of the podcast. One thing I could change: I think for me it would be to stop hiding injustice. I think if we can start to shine a light on injustice. Human beings react really powerfully to injustice when they know it's happening, but so many of the injustices in the world are hidden. So if we could, through the work that IIED does and the work we do with our partners, really shine a light on the injustices in the world, so that people are mobilised to do something about it and so that we can come together in coalitions to remedy them, that's the thing I would like to change. What about you?
John Taylor [20:21] From my side I think there's so many important perspectives and lived experiences that, you know, can contribute meaningfully to these global solutions. And so, I'd say just strengthen and value the voices of marginalised people from around the world, so that people can hear what they have to say and enable those perspectives to be understood – because they have so much to contribute. And I think this is not usually how we've gone about doing things. So really valuing those different voices and bringing them to be part of the solution.
Tara Shine [21:01] Yeah, and that's great. And what's really heartening about that is, I think we have a lot of evidence and proof that IIED is good at that. So it's really doubling down on that strength and using it strategically, which is I think what we have within the manifesto: is a new set of ideas and propositions around how we do just that. So really, look it's so exciting. It’s a fresh take on IIED. It's a fresh agenda, but true to the things that have always mattered to us. So I really enjoyed this conversation, John. It was great also to hear from Crissy and from Tom Mitchell.
And again, we're inviting all of the listeners, please, to go and read the manifesto. It's on the IIED website. And we'd love you to read it, engage with it and come back to us via email if you have thoughts and things you would like to share with us. And John Taylor, thank you for joining us on the podcast today. Love talking to you.
John Taylor [22:02] It's been brilliant. Thank you very much.
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Host [22:06] And that email address, if you’d like to send us your thoughts and feedback on the manifesto, is: [email protected]. That’s, [email protected]. You can find more information about this podcast and our guests at iied.org/podcast, where you can also listen to previous episodes and browse the rest of our website for more information about IIED and our work.
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